Jon Acuff's tips on how to navigate major change in life and how to build platform and business:
- Overwhelmed with Career Change?
- Don’t Feel PEACE about Starting Your Biz?
- The Truth and Myth for Starting Your Biz
- Feeling the Fear Launching Your Own Biz?
- Can Your New Business Succeed?
- Building Platform and Business Tips.
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Do Over: Rescue Monday, Reinvent Your Work, and Never Get Stuck
More about our featured guest Jon Acuff
Jon Acuff is the New York Times Bestselling author of five books including his most recent, Do Over: Rescue Monday, Reinvent Your Work and Never Get Stuck.
For 16 years he’s helped some of the biggest brands in the world tell their story, including The Home Depot, Bose, Staples, and the Dave Ramsey Team. Most recently he’s spoken to hundreds of thousands of people at conferences, colleges, companies and churches. Featured regularly on national media, Jon has been seen on CNN, Fox News, Good Day LA and several other key outlets.
Full Transcript[00:00] Joel: And joining us on the show today is the author of three of the best books that you'll find as it relates to escaping average, moving into your dream job, and doing work that matters. Short, snappy, attention-grabbing titles, Pei you ready for these? [00:20] Pei: I love those titles. [00:22] Joel: Okay, there is ‘Quitter,' which was his first New York Times best selling book. And then there was ‘Start,' and his latest book, and I just got an email from Katie and his team earlier today, and the book now is an official New York Times best seller. And the book is called, ‘Do Over,' and the man of the hour, of course is, Jon Acuff. Jon, welcome back to the show. [00:51] Jon Acuff: Yeah, thanks for having me back Joel. It's fun to talk to you again. [00:53] Joel: This is gonna be a lot of fun, and a few months ago, we had your buddy, Jeff Goins on, and he threw down the gauntlet. And he said, “Joel, if you want me on your show, you're just gonna have to have this guy name Acuff back on your show,” and my hands were tied. What could I do, Jon? [01:10] Jon Acuff: Yeah, you were in a corner. You were in what we call a “Goins' Corner.” [01:14] Joel: Goins' Corner. Oh, nice, nice. [01:16] Jon Acuff: Yo, GC! [01:17] Joel: I love it, I love it. Hey Jon, making best use, and respecting your time here, let's get right into, most of us have experienced many launches and relaunches throughout our life. And I generally ask our guest to zero in on the relaunch that has been the most transformational for them. And then we're just gonna unfold the story from there, and we'll do that with you here in just a few minutes, if that's okay. But first, I'll like to start off the show with a quick piece of takeaway gold, if you will. So, let's just talk a little bit of ‘Do Over.' In the book, you talk about that the reality of a better job begins by building a better you. Now, what exactly did you mean by that? [02:02] Jon Acuff: What I mean by that is that it's a lot easier to blame the economy. It's a lot easier to blame a boss, or timing, or situations, but the reality is, if you want a better job, you have to look in where to build a better you first. It's not your boss' job, it's not your company's job for you to have a good job. It's your job. So, if you really wanna relaunch, it's on you. And that can be either overwhelming, or it can be this amazing sense of freedom, that you get to do that. Once you realize that you've got the responsibility to start working toward that, you realize there's a lot of freedom in that. So, that's what I mean by that is that, it starts with you. [02:39] Joel: It starts with you. Wow, what a great statement. And we're definitely gonna talk a little bit more ‘Do Over,' a little bit later on in the show. But before we get to that section, let's kinda back up a little bit, and Jon, if you would, talk about the most difficult or the most challenging season, that you've relaunched from. [03:00] Jon Acuff: I mean, that's an easy answer. It was 18 months ago, when I transitioned out of my dream job. And after 15 years in corporate America, went off on my own. And it was extremely difficult, in part, 'cause it was public. I had the good fortune of working for somebody with a big public platform, so part of it was that it was public, part of it was that, there was a lot of questions still up in the air. And so, it was one of those moments, where I knew what I was supposed to do, but that doesn't make it easy. [03:30] Joel: Sure, so kind of take us through that a little bit. What are some of the things that you've learned or relearned about yourself, your possibilities, your potentials? And how did you get past some of those doubts or fears, that we all kind of have at some level, as we're transitioning from one job to another opportunity, or just a lifestyle change and adjustment. [03:57] Jon Acuff: Sure, I think one of the biggest lessons I learned, Joel, is that, when you're about to relaunch, you think, “Okay, if I do this, that'll be the scariest thing I do,” like stepping out, the leap, whatever you wanna call it, that'll be the scariest thing. And what you find is when you do it, you jump into deeper fear. And nobody tells you that. And what happens is that, in this moment, you have all these fake people that come up and go, “Oh, when you're doing what you're supposed to do, you just know there's just this sense of peace. It flows off you like cool water cologne, and butterflies play you songs with their wings.” And… [laughter] [04:29] Jon Acuff: You think, “I must've done the wrong thing, because I still I'm afraid.” And what I've learned is that, when you go for it, when you kinda start your relaunch, you jump into deeper fear. And the reason is that, the bigger the purpose, the bigger the fear, the bigger the story, the bigger the dragon. And so, the most important thing in that season is to remember that, bravery is a choice, not a feeling. You can't make a tough decision, start a relaunch, then realize, “Wow, it's really hard,” and immediately switch to something else, because you think the arrival of fear is failure, it's not. Being afraid isn't failure. Staying afraid is failure, and there's a big difference. [05:06] Joel: I love how you said, I know, Pei, you've got something to say, too. So, when you relaunch, you actually jump, you go from fear into deeper fear, so basically you're going from the skillet into the frying pan. Is that how that saying goes? Or, you're going from… No, from the skillet into the fire. [05:20] Jon Acuff: Yeah, I know it's hot. That's all I know. [laughter] [05:24] Pei: So, I actually, instead of feeling that, “Oh, that sense of peace, or sense of flow.” If you feel deeper fear, actually that means you are possibly in the right place. [05:37] Jon Acuff: Yes, I had somebody say, the way they said it to me was that, “There's two decisions every time, and you should choose the one that gives you butterflies. Choose one that… ” And the problem is we get comfortable, we wanna make the comfortable decision, or we think, once we found our calling, it'll be comfortable and easy, and it's not. And so, again, you make this big decision, and you feel like, “Maybe I made the wrong one, 'cause I'm still afraid.” And what I would argue is that sometimes you know you've made the right one if there's more fear. Steven Pressfield, the author of ‘War of Art,' which I'm sure you've read, talks about how fear can be a true north. That it can be like a compass point and point you where you're supposed to go versus where you're not supposed to go, and I think that's a great concept. [06:17] Joel: What do you think that sometimes people with the best of intentions believe the opposite of what you just said, that if there's bigger fear, deeper fear, then that might be a yield or maybe even a blinking red light. Why do you think that is? [06:33] Jon Acuff: I think part of it is that people like me, motivational authors, have done a disservice to people and we often show you the after or we show you all the sexy easy parts. You know, everybody posts that photo on Instagram of the ocean and goes, “Here's my office today. I did it all on my own.” And we never show you the photo in the Hampton Inn in Oklahoma City, by the side of the highway as you actually work on your book in the sad little hotel room. We don't show you all of the struggle stuff, so what happens is your listeners, people around the world, they think, “Okay, it's going to be easy because all these people told me if I read this book in two steps it'll all be easy.” [chuckle] [07:13] Pei: Yeah. [07:13] Jon Acuff: And that's just not true. That's not true. And so, I think what happens is culturally we want to believe there's a short cut and we've been promised that there's a shortcut, so when we find ourselves in the middle of the long way we think we've made a mistake. [07:28] Joel: Very well said. [07:29] Pei: I love that, yeah. [07:30] Joel: Thank you for sharing Jon. Okay, talking about ‘Do Over.' Now, why was ‘Do Over,' your book, your most recent book, why was that the follow up to ‘Start.' Excuse me, why did that need to be the follow up to ‘Start'? [07:44] Jon Acuff: It wasn't a book I planned, it was a book I lived. I wrote ‘Do Over,' because I had a gigantic do over and wrote the book to survive the do over. And then I got to travel around the country and talk to other people to see if they were in career transition too. If they were relaunching as it were. So I went to Austin and Seattle and San Diego and Minneapolis and Atlanta and Houston and Dallas and I'd have these meet ups where 60 to 70 people would come and we'd talk about the career transitions we were all facing. [08:11] Jon Acuff: And so, fortunately for me as an author, that's where I had the opportunity to really shape these ideas in the trenches. You know, it stinks when you read a book and you can tell the author wrote that in like an isolation chamber, and she was in her home office and never really engaged with the real world. And so, what happened was I went through a big do over. I wrote this book because I needed it first, and then I went around the country to see if other people needed it too and fortunately they did. And that's how ‘Do Over' got created. [08:37] Joel: See I love that, because what Jon is saying, Pei, is that he was his own solution. He had to craft his own solution, and then he wanted to see if it could be the solution for other people. [08:49] Pei: Yeah, face-to-face meetings is one of the best ways to get instant feedback. I love that idea for just any content creators, writer, or entrepreneurs. [09:00] Jon Acuff: Yeah, it's critical. You're right and you said something really smart there about face-to-face. The more time I spend online, the more I realize face-to-face still matters, and so, that's really something I've learned in the last 18 months is that I need to… I do a regular meet up in Nashville, so I have people come in and we'll have 100 people and we'll work on our dreams together. And so, yeah, you're so right. It's still really important. [09:24] Joel: I like what you said the more time that you spend online, the more that you realize that “Gosh, face-to-face continues to be important.” [09:33] Pei: Or even more because of… [09:35] Joel: Probably more these days. [09:36] Pei: Yeah, yeah. [09:37] Joel: Because… [09:37] Jon Acuff: Yeah, it's rare. It's becoming, I think it's becoming rarer, and Joel we had the chance to hang out face-to-face. We're talking from experience and we've been in the same space before and space still matters geographical where you can see somebody and go, “Okay, I see you're working on something. Here's what I'm working on. Here's how we can help each other.” [09:56] Pei: I do remember that day. It was 17 degrees in Nashville. [chuckle] It was a cold day. [10:02] Jon Acuff: Yeah, it was a cold day. It was not fun for anybody. [10:05] Joel: Pei, I don't know if you looked at Facebook, but I just recently posted a picture that we took with Jon, and it looks, gosh, we look so much different. It looks like almost, almost a Throwback Thursday picture. [chuckle] [10:16] Jon Acuff: Yeah, it really does. We look like young kids or at least younger adults. [chuckle] [10:21] Joel: Uh yeah, okay. Younger adults, okay. I'll go with that. Okay, so in the book you have a lot of great ideas and key terms that I wanna kind of talk about for just a few minutes. Got plenty of listener questions that I want to get to as well, but let's hear from our sponsor first. So getting back to your book, in ‘Do Over,' you talk about two things that I'd like you to expand upon. You talk about a career ceiling and then you also talk about a career savings account. So can you weave those together for us. [10:54] Jon Acuff: Certainly, certainly, a career ceiling is when you get stuck, and stuck can happen a lot of different ways. Stuck can be the 70% of Americans that, according to a Gallup survey, are disengaged at work. Stuck can be, you came to the top of a career ladder. That was my story. I was 32 years old. I worked at Auto Trader in Atlanta. Great company, and I was a senior content designer and there was no senior, senior content designer position for me to go to. I was at the end of that career ladder and that was overwhelming at 32. Industries get stuck. [11:24] Jon Acuff: The New York Times on this author, Nick Bilton asked, “Why didn't Kodak create Instagram? Why didn't Polaroid create Instagram?” Of all the people that should have understood our love of photography, how did they miss it? And they missed it because companies get stuck. When they start they have innovation and risk, and then if it goes well, they move into protection mode and they start to say things like, “That's not how things are done.” And so, that's what a ceiling is when you get stuck up against that. And when you bump into a ceiling or when you go through a job transition, what you need the most is what I call a career savings account. [11:56] Jon Acuff: And the problem is most of us were taught for 18 years to get ready for college and then we graduate and the next thing we get ready for is death and retirement, and there's this 40 year gap where we culturally believe the idea that a job is just a job, it's why we go to TGI Fridays and not TGI Mondays. And so, I started to look at that and realize what if we could invest in our careers? What if we could invest in our relaunches? What would that look like? And what you need is a career savings account, which is four things. Relationships plus skills plus character times hustle. [12:24] Jon Acuff: That's the formula to launch a dream. It's a formula to have a 50-year career that you enjoy. It's the formula to do work that matters, is those four elements. And what's fun, Joel, is there's not a single listener right now whose mind I just blew. Nobody's going, “Oh my gosh, @JonAcuff just said the word skills. I never knew I needed that.” But the challenge is, most of us have those four things, we've just never applied them in this way. And you need all four. If you only have three and not four, it falls apart. [12:50] Jon Acuff: Say you have amazing skills, amazing character, amazing hustle, but no relationships, you become the emperor with new clothing, no one can tell you the truth. No one can question you. And what I've learned is that leaders who can't be questioned end up doing questionable things, and so, we need all four of those elements and that's what builds a career savings account. [13:09] Joel: Love that. [13:09] Pei: Yeah, and that actually runs with our theme currently of “Be known in the niche,” because if we want a transition out of a career, launching our own business, and become known. And that takes time, that takes skill, that takes all those four components that Jon just shared. [13:27] Joel: Thank you for sharing. [13:28] Jon Acuff: Oh, without a doubt. And “Known in your niche,” is such a great way to say it. I love that. [13:32] Joel: Thank you. Talking with Jon Acuff today. His latest book, ‘Do Over,' is now officially a New York Times Best Selling book. Definitely you wanna pick that book up. We're gonna include all of the go-to links in the notes that accompany this episode. Also, you can get ‘Quitter,' ‘Start,' and his latest book, ‘Do Over,' in audio format from our friends at Audible. Matter of fact, if you're a brand new member you can actually sign up for their no-strings-attached 30 day trial membership and you can actually pick up ‘Do Over' today absolutely free and start enjoying that book immediately. All you need to do, go to joelboggess.com/Audible. Again, joelboggess.com/Audible. Sign up for your 30 day trial and get this book. You need it. Jon, we got about 10 minutes left, I want to get to our listener calls, so I'm gonna just kinda go little bit rapid fire, if that's okay. [14:35] Jon Acuff: Great. [14:36] Joel: Okay, fantastic. [14:36] Jon Acuff: Yeah, awesome. [14:37] Joel: Here we go. So Jeff David in Utah, he asks, “What made you keep going when you felt like you weren't making progress?” [14:50] Jon Acuff: I think a big part of that is relationships. You need people that will kind of nudge you forward if you're not able to nudge yourself. That's a big part of why we need relationships. And so, I think a lot of that was the friends that I have that would believe in me at moments when I didn't believe in myself. And so, I think that was huge for me. It's to be in community and be surrounding yourself with people that will tell you the truth and encourage you along the way. [15:15] Joel: Very good. Okay, Jeff, thank you for giving us that question. Also, Doc Kennedy, he asks, “How have you changed as a person after finding success?” And then the second part of that same question is, “How do you keep your pride and your ego in check?” [15:34] Jon Acuff: I think for the second question, I'd say poorly. I would say that's a daily struggle. How I've changed? I think I'm learning things like, I think I'm learning how to let go of perfectionism. When things were on a smaller scale, I could trick myself into believing I could get it all done and now I can't. Like I can't go to coffee with everyone who wants to go to coffee. I can't do every request that somebody requests of me. And there was a long time where I felt like a failure for that, and now I realize, “Okay, I'm not the answer to every question. There's a lot of questions I won't know the answer to. I can't go to every coffee. I'm not scalable. I need to focus on these things, like writing a book.” [16:18] Jon Acuff: Like I had somebody the other day say, “You don't engage enough with people on social media,” and whenever somebody says that to me, they usually have a really small platform. And I think it's unfair to say, “I engage with all 400 of my followers on Twitter,” and I think I have 240,000, there's no way I can part like, I'll never write a book again. Like, if I tried to respond to everyone who said something, I would never be able to write a book. [16:39] Jon Acuff: And so, I think I'm learning to let go of stuff like that. As far as ego, I think one of the things that's really helped me is staying connected to real people. One of the biggest reasons I do the meet-ups, is that I wanna go engage with real people doing real things and not think I'm some sort of special person that deserves a green room and can't engage with people. [16:58] Joel: Gotcha. [16:58] Jon Acuff: So, I think fighting for relationships and the face-to-face that we talked about is one of the ways. And then kids. My kids could care less about 99% of the stuff I do. Like when I told them, “Hey, we hit the New York Times list,” they're like, “Oh, great. Are we gonna go outside today?” So you wanna stay humble. And then the other thing is that at the meet-ups you never know how they're going to go. And so, you could show up and there would be five people there. So I think one of the ways you stay humble is you keep doing new things. I think you get prideful when you figure out three things you're really good at and just do those over and over again. [17:30] Joel: Ohhh, that's a good one. That is a great one. Appreciate you sharing that, Jon. [17:35] Jon Acuff: Sure. [17:35] Joel: Okay, Kate Ericsson, our friend in California, she actually saw you speak at Ikon, I guess that was what? A couple weeks ago. [17:43] Jon Acuff: Oh yeah, yeah. That was fun. [17:45] Joel: Okay. And she says that you said something that really stuck with her, and I'm gonna try to say this right. You said in your presentation, “Care about what the people you care about, care about.” So can you explain? [18:00] Jon Acuff: Sure. That was a piece about empathy. Part of what character is involves empathy and the way I define empathy is understanding what someone needs and acting on it. There's a lot of people that do one of the two parts, but they fail at doing both. We've all had customer service reps who understood what we needed, but didn't do anything, and you call 'em up and you say, “I have a problem.” They go, “We're so sorry. We're so sorry.” And you go, “Well, will you fix it?” And they go, “We're so sorry. We're so sorry.” They're missing the second part of that. [18:27] Jon Acuff: So what I talk about, if you want to have a great relaunch, if you want a long-lasting career with your clients, with your vendors, with your employees, with your coworkers, care about what the people you care about, care about. So when they say, “This is something we care about,” respond to that. And you should be invested in that. You should be focused on that. I think a lot of times when you launch something and you haven't figured out if people care about it, it flops and then you act surprised. [18:54] Jon Acuff: Another idea I talked about in that same section was, “Read less minds, ask more questions.” And my thing there, and it's funny it should be “fewer minds” grammatically, technically speaking, but my point there is so often when somebody is gonna do something, a business launch or something, they don't ask if people want it. They just spend a lot of money a lot of time and they launch it and nobody responds and they go, “It's so weird. Nobody wanted that thing.” And you go, “What if we had just asked them questions instead of trying to read their minds? What if we had cared about what they care about?” So that's what that point was about. [19:24] Pei: I absolutely love how you transition into how business owners run their products or services 'cause last year we taught a live class according to our business coach advice to teach the first class live and then create an automatic course for podcasters. So we get a instant feedback and really understand what they want to know. [19:54] Joel: Right. Test… [19:54] Jon Acuff: Yeah, and really how to help 'em. [19:56] Joel: Exactly. Exactly. Test the concept, make sure that there's a need there that we can fill, and then we can build it out from there. Dean Patino in Chicago, he actually made a comment that says, “You guys look exactly the same,” referring to our Throwback. [20:13] Jon Acuff: That's kind. He might be a liar, but that's very kind of him to say. [20:17] Joel: Those were nice words. They might have been coming out of both sides of his… [20:20] Jon Acuff: They were nice. Nice words are nice. [20:22] Joel: They might have been coming out of both sides of his mouth, I don't know. But his question is: Ask Jon who his mentors have been and how have they inspired him. That's a great question. Your mentors? [20:34] Jon Acuff: My dad has been a big one. He started a Southern Baptist Church in Massachusetts in the '80s which was pretty unheard of at the time, and so, I learned a lot about adventure from him. A lot about doing things that might seem crazy on the outside. I would say my father-in-law also. He helps run a huge business, a billion dollar business, and he gives me great business advice. Reggie Joiner would be another one. Reggie Joiner runs this organization called The reThink in Atlanta and I'm constantly bouncing ideas off of him. [21:08] Jon Acuff: My agent, Curtis Yeats, and Mike Salisbury, my two agents. Curtis, he's one of these people that isn't effusive. Like I'll never call him and he'll go, “That's amazing! You're so great!” He quietly asks me really good questions. And so, as a mentor, I need somebody that I can't overwhelm with my passion and excitement and just go, “Ah!” and say a bunch of words. I need somebody who will make me pause and go, “Wait a second. Why were you gonna do that opportunity? What is that really about? I think your ego is making that decision. I don't think that's the best decision,” and will challenge me on that. So those are a handful of the people that have really helped. And then of course my wife. As you know, having somebody pushing in the same direction is really important in a marriage, and so, I've learned and been challenged in a lot of amazing ways from my wife. [21:56] Joel: And you're about to celebrate your 14th year anniversary, same as us. [22:01] Jon Acuff: Exactly. Everybody cool got married in 2001. [22:03] Joel: I suppose so. I suppose so. Let's see. So Patty in Colorado asks, and you touched on this concept a little bit earlier, she said, “Do you continually reinvent yourself or does it just feel or come natural to you?” [22:21] Jon Acuff: I am curious about reinvention. I get stuck really easily though if I'm not careful, and here's a silly example. So before we had kids, we got to go to Italy, my wife and I. You can still go to Italy if you have kids, it's just you have to find a sitter or you bring the kids. So we went and my brother was living in Florence at the time. Beautiful city, and we were supposed to spend a couple of days there and then go to Venice. And I got comfortable in Florence. Like I figured it out and I could get around and I knew where we'd go eat. And Jenny said, “Okay, now it's time to go to Venice.” I was like, “Ah, we can just stay in Florence. We don't need to go to Venice.” And she was like, “There's no way we're coming all the way to Italy, having a room we've already paid for, and then not going to Venice because you're comfortable in Florence. It's time to go do a new adventure.” [23:10] Jon Acuff: And so, there are moments where I get stuck like that. I think what you have to remember is that, especially career and your relaunch, if you don't, maybe reinvent might be too strong a word, but if you're not learning new things, you're going to get stuck because technology is going to change and make you irrelevant. [23:25] Joel: Fantastic. Last question, Jon. Really appreciate your time today. Doug… Let's see, Killaware, asks, “What is the most important step to make a do-over stick?” [23:44] Jon Acuff: I think it'd be persistence. I think that you need to do it regardless of if the results show up as fast as you want 'cause they won't. You need to do it regardless of if the money shows up as fast as you want because it won't. You need to do it regardless of if the people clap as loud as you want because they won't, and so, I think the persistence. For me… I did four years of school in journalism, so learning how to write, four years of college, and then I've spent the next 17 years as a full-time writer. Now 15 of those, I was writing books on the side and I was focusing on marketing and speeches and other things, the last 18 months I've been a full-time writer, but that's 21 years of trying to be consistent and persistent. [24:35] Jon Acuff: Now, things certainly changed over time. I wrote a satire blog and that turned into a business blog, so there's definitely changes, but I've tried to push every step of the way. And so, I always tell people that's the myth, is that, “Oh, it's overnight success.” I was telling somebody that the other day that my first book, ‘Quitter,' the cover said national best seller which really just means like sold some books around the country. It doesn't mean anything. But then I wanted to hit the Wall Street Journal, so ‘Start' on the cover said “Wall Street Journal best seller.” [25:07] Jon Acuff: So then ‘Start' at the New York Times list so then when the new one, ‘Do Over' came out, I got to say, “New York Times best selling author.” So every step of the way, it was growing, it was pushing, but it wasn't… After I wrote ‘Quitter' I couldn't be like how dare I not hit the New York Times list? I had things to learn. I had time to put in. There's a lot of things that I wanna level up as a writer and become a better writer and that's gonna take time and effort, and I'm not there yet, and so, I need to be persistent. So that's what I'd say is the best thing. [25:40] Joel: Fantastic. Great answer. So, I heard consistency and then I heard being persistent. [25:47] Jon Acuff: Being persistent and consistent, yeah, you're exactly right. [25:50] Joel: Fantastic. And Sylvia Ramirez just says, “Jon, are you really that funny?” [25:56] Pei: I think we have proved that. [laughter] [25:59] Jon Acuff: Yeah, I think if you ask me I'm not the funniest one in my family. I would say that my youngest brother Bennett is way funnier than me. So I think I'm funny, but I know in certain company it's nowhere close. He's definitely funnier than me. [26:17] Joel: Talking with Jon Acuff today. Of course, we'll have all of the go-to places in the blog article that accompanies this episode. Jon, we just really appreciate your time today. We wish you all the best. Congratulations on just another page turner for the Acuff expanding library. [26:39] Jon Acuff: Well, thank you so much for having me, Joel. It's fun to get to do these with people I know and I've spent some time with. So, continued success on the podcast. I think you're helping a lot of people. [26:47] Joel: All the best, Jon. God bless. Have a wonderful day. [26:50] Jon Acuff: Thanks guys. [26:50] Joel: Bye-bye. [pause] [26:52] Joel: Thank you so much for tuning in. You can also access our show from mini mobile apps or by visiting our website. For today's story, just go to joelboggess.com/309. You'll also find show transcripts and additional resources to help you in your relaunch and to help you become known in your niche.
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